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APRIL 29 – MAY 03, 2024

Receive profound teachings from the yogic wisdom traditions that thrust you into digestible depths, result in personal revelations, and are anchored in authenticity.

TRANSCRIPT

INDU ARORA

Amy:

Welcome to the Study Yoga Online Summit. If you are seeking beyond the sea of superficial yoga that is flooding your feed or yearning for insightful conversations and community, or are a sincere seeker devoted to the depths of studentship, then the Study Yoga Masterclass series is the nectar that you need. Indu Arora–Ayurveda and yoga teacher of more than two decades, mentor and author of three books–considers herself a student for lifetime. She’s inspired by and taught under Kriya yoga, Himalayan yoga, Kashmir Shaivism, and Shivananda yoga lineages. She has studied in a traditional guru shishya parampara setting. Her core philosophy is yoga is work in, not work out. It’s such a treat to have this window to speak with you Indu. So welcome.

Indu:

Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

Amy:

And together we are delving into the nectar of yoga nidra and on the surface, yoga nidra is usually seen as a technique of divine sleep, let’s say, performed lying down completely still with eyes closed. Guided instruction is given to bring attention to various sacred sites within the body, alongside adherence to various visualizations offered. However, Indu, I’d love for you to take us deeper than this. I believe the formal practice arose around the 20th century, potentially out of tantrik techniques, but it is certainly much more than simply a technique. So what is yoganidra and what is yoganidra not?

Indu:

That’s a really great question and I loved the way that you put it. I think there are so many things that I can point out from the get go. I will go in the method how when someone writes a commentary traditionally on Indian texts, they first focus on what is it, what it is not. It’s called the method of negation. And then what’s left out is understood that, okay, that is what it is. So as you mentioned that Yoganidra currently is seen as a technique. Because it is seen as a technique, it is often seen as a series of steps to follow, whether those steps relate to relaxation of different parts of the body, whether they are about visiting as a pilgrimage, certain sacred sites in the body, or it is accompanied by certain visualizations. Now these methods or these steps in my limited understanding are not yoganidra.

Yoganidra is eventually a state of consciousness and there are certain methods that we can follow that may lead us slowly towards that state following any particular method does not guarantee that one will be in that state of consciousness. It simply means that someone in the past has followed this pathway and has over a period of time entered that state. So it is kind of a promise of that lineage that if you follow these specific steps, you will enter that state. So what is yoga nidra and what it is not? Let me say, and this is again, I will say that as you mentioned in my bio, that I consider myself a lifetime student of this subject. And it’s not that I consider, it is the truth. Anything else is an illusion. This is the truth that I’m a student of this subject and I can only speak to the limited realization that I have had so far.

And based on my limited realization and the teachers that I’ve studied with Yoganidra, which is often confused with some kind of a guided relaxation, it is not. It is often confused with sometimes a hypnotic state. It is not. It is also confused with some kind of a lucid dreaming. It is not. Sometimes it is also thought of as some kind of a magic wand that if you have a certain desire often named as sankalpa, that somehow this magic wand called yoga nidra will make it come true. It is not. Sometimes it’s considered a quick fix to sleep issues. I would again say it is not, neither it’s a meditation method, nor it’s a relaxation. So what is it? And not just tantric roots, there are vedic roots to this practice. There is Tantrokta Ratri Suktam, but there is also Vedokta Ratri Suktam, which is the hymn to the goddess Nidra. And that, so its roots are found in one of the ancient upanishads by the name Mandukya upanishad, where the state, the silence that follows after utterance of the sound…

…OM, or listening of the sound, OM, that silence is a pathway into this state of consciousness called Yoganidra. It is a state of Laya, it is a state of dissolution. Now also, I kind of pay attention to how we word things or how things are worded sometimes and how that can sometimes also create confusion. For example, it can be considered a delicious state, a sweet state or a tasty or a beautiful state or divine state. And here is my little bit of concern with that kind of description that whenever we label it with a certain objective, which sounds so alluring, so beautiful, we often are drawn towards that objective. Now in this state of yoganidra, which if at all I have to choose words to describe it, I would say yoganidra is a kind of silence. Yoganidra is a kind of void.

Yoganidra is a kind of dissolution, laya, and whenever we, or I can even say yoganidra is a kind of samadhi. So when we talk about that Laya or Samadhi, there is no duality. Now because there is no duality, there is nothing to observe or taste or experience. We can only taste or observe or experience something. As long as there is an experiencer and there is an experience, which means an experience is often limited to our states of mind. And yoga nidra is not a state of mind, it’s a state of consciousness. And in this estate of layer dissolution consciousness, there is no duality. Even in meditation, there is these three things, the meditator that is the subject, the object upon which the meditator is meditating and the process. But in this state of yoganidra, all these three, whether it’s a method, whether it is the person or the process, all these three things dissolve into a void, into a silence, which seems like a state of sleep, a state of lack of awareness. Although there is a certain awareness consciousness, and because there is no otherness, we cannot count an experience as equal to yoganidra,

Amy:

I love how you make that discernment. So it’s almost a state of neutrality. Instead of putting labels, alluring labels on it, it’s actually far more neutral. And I suppose by your definition of what yoga nidra is, it’s a higher state, let’s say than meditation because we are going beyond meditation. And so therefore, let me emphasize that we’re talking about it as a state of being, not the technique itself as being higher than the practice or the sitting of meditation or the state of dhyana. So you’re saying is that state where we get into the truest neutral state of yoganidra is beyond or higher than meditation, correct?

Indu:

Yes. And I would make one more distinction. One is nidra. The word nudra that dru or dra at the end, it means to draw forth from within, a state that is free from all bondages. So that the suffix dru or dra has two meanings. One is to draw forth from within, and the second is a state which is free from all bondages. Bondages of what? Bondages of karmas, bondages of dualities, bondages of this and that. And the prefix that Ni, ni means the state of void or the state of absence or the state without any support. So if you combine these two parts together, ni and dra, it means to draw forth from within a state of absolute void or nothingness or state of absence. Now, ordinarily when we go to sleep and when in the sleep there are different stages. There is a stage which is called non rapid eye movement or non REM sleep or slow wave sleep or delta sleep.

Now in that state we are absolutely absorbed in that state. We can only recall when we wake up that, oh, I had a good sleep on the account of the experience of non-REM sleep because that is the deepest sleep that we can have. But there is an element of absence or void. There is a lack of awareness. That is a time when we cannot say that, oh, I’m laying down on the left or the right side of the bed, or we do not have awareness of our accomplishments or our losses or our duties or our failures, any of that. So there is that dropping of all possible adjuncts. So there is a quality of tamas or ignorance or absence in that. But when we add yoga before nidra, that yoga symbolizes a state of awareness. So in that state of void, even though ordinarily when anyone goes to sleep and enters that state, there is an absolute lack of awareness.

But in yoga, nidra, in that state, it runs parallel the body and the mind, the breath body and mind mimics as if you are in deep dreamless sleep, but the consciousness element is alert. So you’re not compromising sleep or you’re not fighting sleep. But there is an element of awareness as one enters into it. Now, yes, I am saying that it is a step deeper than meditation. See, often yoga nidra is confused with savasana and now if we talk about yoga (yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara) now pratyahara is what is the realm of savasana. So if we have to find out a place where does Shavasana belong? Yes, we can say it belongs to Asana, but it is also a state. It’s a state of pratyahara. In the same light, if we have to say then what would be a place for yoga nidra, because it’s neither an asana nor pranayama, then where does it belong? It belongs to being a bridge between meditation and samadhi.

Amy:

So perhaps you could say that the technique itself is following the steps of pratyahara and dharana, the technique itself is taking us through those, but the actual state of yoga nidra is beyond that. Would that be…

Indu:

In some ways. I would say that we built a certain appetite of the nervous system of the mind. Most of the time, the moment we relax, we fall asleep. The moment there is an element of relaxation, even our meditation becomes almost like absent mindedness and we come back to, oh, I forgot I was reciting a mantra. I forgot that I was focusing on, it is difficult for our body, our mind to digest relaxation. We have become so, such thin focus and so much distraction and so much of flooding of our sensory gates that the mind is tired. So the moment you offer it some kind of relaxation, it falls asleep. It dozes off because it’s almost like a gourmet meal. So it just takes it in because it doesn’t know when will it get again, that kind of meal in meditation. Now I know there are different kinds, different things that are talked about meditation and different cultures.

So I’m going to speak of meditation in regards to yoga. In yoga, when we talk about meditation, we talk about a certain alertness of the spine, of wakefulness. So we can say that in meditation what we are transcending is the wakeful state of mind. In the wakeful state of mind, we experience absent-mindedness. In the wakeful state of mind, we experience distraction. We experience that occasional concentration and absent-minded restlessness, overwhelm and so on and so forth. So the meditation that we talk about in yoga with the practice of various techniques is almost like how do we, for the lack of a better word, I don’t want to use the word master, but how do I overcome that ordinary distraction, absent mindedness, emotional turmoil in the wakefulness? That pathway is the meditative pathway, but what it leaves out is a transcendence over tamas and tamas is that element of that which we experience not just when we are awake, when we are falling asleep, when we are supine, when our body completely gives into the gravity.

Now generally meditation that is talked about in yoga is with the upright, maintaining the natural curvatures. Here we are giving that lying down position or a relaxed position with gravity, whether it’s on the side or inclined, reclined, supine, it doesn’t matter. What matters is there is a highlighted presence of giving into the gravity, which almost invites tamas, and then you transcend that and that pathway is yoga nidra. So the meditation that we talk about in yoga almost leaves out, what’s that word that when you have that shadow, a blind spot, it almost leaves out a blind spot that there is a state that we have not addressed, which is an ordinary state where there is element of lack of awareness. The only practice that addresses that is yoganidra.

Amy:

That’s so interesting, and so you touched on this very briefly in some sense, but I’d love to know therefore what the key texts are that we could turn to that really reveal the deeper essence and teachings, origins, let’s say, behind yoga nidra as a state of being, but also touching on the understanding of the layers of consciousness, particularly for those who value knowing the source of their knowledge and their practices.

Indu:

There are so many sources, Amy, I’m going to say look into Devi Mahatmyam where the yoga nidra is talked about as a goddess, as a feminine energy, the one who is the master of all the three guna-sattva, rajas, tamas. But primarily in that episode, she’s considered as to be embodied tamas and how she brings about that experience of thas in the form of sleep, in the form of ignorance, in the form of delusion, in the form of illusion. And when we invoke her, it also brings about the experience of a certain awakening. So Devi Mahatmyam, one, then there is the Ratri Suktam, one is the tantric Ratri Suktam and one is the Vedic Ratri suktam. Both of them invoke one, invokes the goddess as nidra and one invokes her in the form of ratri itself, night itself. It’s considered a kind of night. So see there is a difference. In one, She’s the goddess by the name Nidra and in one she is a kind of night.

The night, the night that is considered darkness, the night that is ignorance, the night that is considered to be when we die and the night that is complete dissolution, which leads to the state of Samadhi, that is one. Then there is Mandukya open where that state, that humming sound. When you keep prolonging that humming then sound, the nada becomes nada suchi, the needle of a sound and it becomes so subtle and so subtle and we have to maintain awareness as the sound component becomes subtle and subtle and subtle. So the light and the sound component travels together and when it reaches a bindu, a point of dissolution that point is yoga nidra and that is another window into what is yoga nidra through Mandukya Upanishad as a state of consciousness. Then there is another text by the name Aditya Hridaya Stotram where it is talked about as a witness to the witness of the witness, witnessing the witness, that which stays awake while we are in deep sleep.

Now just a few minutes back, I mentioned that there is no element of awareness when we are in deep sleep. I’m going to retrace my steps and say actually there is, what is less is we have limited time, so we cannot go into so many details, but there is actually, there is because there is something that prevents us from falling off the edge of the bed. What is that element that still tells us where we are? Even when there is complete sensory gating in that deep dreamless sleep still there is something that is witnessing everything, that which we tap into next morning and say, I had a good sleep. I feel so refreshed. We are recalling something but we cannot completely recall. So Aditya Hridyam Stotram where this state is compared to sun, solar energy, and just a minute back I was talking about feminine energy, lunar energy.

So see, two different texts, talking about the states as a solar energy and the other as lunar energy. Then there is many other tantric texts like Vijñāna-bhairava-tantra, which talks about how this is a state right in between dream, and deep dreamless sleep. When we maintain the awareness how you are slipping from dream into deep dreamless sleep, right? Then it reveals the state reveals itself. I mean I can keep going on. There is another text called Yoga Taravali which actually talks about yoganidra and then there is Hathayoga Pradipika that actually talks about yoganirda comparing it to Kechari mudra, where it is compared to a mudra. And there is, let’s not forget Paanjali Yoga Sutra-s, where there are only three times that the word nidra occurs in the entire sutras and once it is mentioned as vrtti and once it is mentioned as a tool that is if we utilize that tool that is nidra and we maintain the stream of awareness from wake fullness into dream, into deep sleep, that it becomes a method of concentration, dhyana. I know, oh my god, how can I forget? There is another one that is Adi Shankaracharya, that are verses, stanzas that describe it as the state beyond wakefulness, dream, and deep sleep, as the fourth state, Turiya. So there are so many references we could dedicate this particular talk that we are having just to the historical references. But what has happened in current times is it has just become a technique and I see the benefit of it, but I see so many things that we are missing out.

Amy:

And with everything that you’ve shared, I’d love to sort of pick out the states of consciousness here, which are touched on in the Mandukya Upanishad and thereby when we consider the states of consciousness and in the context of the conversation here, how is yoganidra, whether it’s as a state of being or let’s say a technique, either or, a tool to work with our Samskara-s and or our vasana-s? So working with that more subconscious, the subconscious conditioning and impressions, but perhaps as a state of being, it’s beyond that, but to get to that state beyond are we working through those? I just love at least your own personal understanding or thoughts on that.

Indu:

So think about it as a state beyond, if what I’m visualizing right now, and visualize along with me if you can, as if you’re standing right at the, witnessing the waves of a ocean at the shore, and on the surface how you observe the waves and the ripples and the tide, sometimes high, sometimes low, and irrespective that there is turbulence on the top, on the surface level, if you go deeper into the ocean and keep going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, there is a place that is a point where there’s absolutely no ripples, no movement per se, not in the form of those ripples and waves. Similar is the nature of our mind. On the surface level there is chatter, there is mental chatter, there is emotional chatter, then there is subconscious chatter, which we call vasana-s, which we call subconscious desires.

As we keep going deeper, deeper, deeper, and we have to go deeper and deeper and deeper beyond all these levels of turbulences, whether they are conscious or subconscious, lies the state of complete dissolution, which is called yoga nidra. It’s like taking a deep dive into the ocean of your mind and through the ocean of your mind into the ocean of consciousness. And every time you dive deeper into it, it’s almost as if you come out with a pearl of realization. Just like when you dive into the ocean sometimes you can come up with a pearl, oyster holding the pearl, in the same way that pearl of realization, is a gift of the state of yoganidra. Mandukya is the only text that talks about, in my limited awareness, the only talks that talks about the five parameters to say that, oh, was it yoga nidra or was it not.

And one of that is a complete immersion into that supreme intelligence, which is called prajna, and that state is called prajna(inaudible), which means a consolidated mass of consciousness, a consolidated mass of intelligence that state that is called yoga nidra. So every time you go there, it’s almost, there is a certain kind of, one, realization. Two, there is almost like a rinsing or washing. It’s not conscious, it’s not subconscious either. It’s just something that is happening. It’s a kind of renewal. It’s a kind of complete rebirthing that is happening. You are getting in touch with something even if not consciously. And every time you meet that it’s like a touchstone, that state of yoga, there is a touchstone, something changes. What changes is that samskara-s, it’s that attachment to the karma-s, whether positive or negative, whether those we want to be attached with or whether those that we are aversive to it doesn’t matter. But there is a kind of complete renewal, bathing, rinsing, cleansing that happens. So therefore we can say that this practice is a practice that slowly leads us to a state which is free from samskara-s. However, let me add a clause.

When we utilize a particular technique or method, because most of us do right? IIn order to enter into yoga nidra, we follow some steps, and in those steps sometimes we have a step which is called the step of sankalpa. And in that sankalpa, most of the time we are asking more and more whether it is more peace, whether it is more sleep, whether it is more, just more of something. So that is when we have kind of interfered with the process because we have started spinning another wheel of karma. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but I’m just saying that we have to be careful. Do we want yoga nidra to work as a tool, what it was devised to work out or work as, or what is its promise that is complete dissolution? Or we want to use just a part of it and make a deal with yoganidra? In long run, not a very good deal because we are just asking for tiny something when it has endless infinity, that experience to offer.

Amy:

That’s such an interesting perspective and discernment. So what is the place of sankalpa then?

Indu:

See from time to time we must revise. We must sit with ourselves, where we are in our goals, in our aspirations and the philosophy or the tools that we are utilizing, let’s say, yoga or tantra or Ayurveda, doesn’t matter. Whatever tools we are utilizing, five years back, maybe the reason I was practicing yoga was different, so my sankalpa was different and it was okay at that time to have that sankalpa, but now when was the last time I assessed? Why am I practicing what I’m practicing? Does it apply? Have I, has there been a certain mental evolution? That is a shift. My teacher used to say that when the meaning of the same word changes with time for you, know that you are growing.

So it’s the same tool. Some people practice yoga for flexibility, some for strength, some for good sleep, some for just because it’s a good exercise, some for mental peace, some for emotional tranquility. Some people practice yoga to attain the state of yoga. Some people practice yoga for yoga. In the same light, many of us at different points in our life may be drawn towards a practice called yoganidra, not necessarily a state called yoganidra, and we may therefore have different sankalpa at that point in life. But what we are missing is that we are not reassessing, we are not sitting with ourselves asking ourselves, where am I now? What can I get? The promise of yoga is vast and endless. It promises us ultimate freedom kaivalya samadhi. So where are we based on that? Our sankalpa may change initially. Maybe my sankalpa is a good night’s sleep. It’s okay. My sankalpa may be de-stressing, my sankalpa… Maybe there is a certain habitual pattern that I have and I would like to change, bring a shift from inside out. All of this is okay, but be mindful. There may come a time where we might wake up to the ultimate promise of yoga nidra, that is yoga nidra. At that time, our sankalpa of yoganidra might yoganidra itself.

Amy:

Yeah, that’s beautiful and it’s just a reflection of our own individual evolution and maturation perhaps on the path and just yes, accepting where we are in each moment, but also being willing to reflect and contemplate our own growth and transformation and transitions on the path. That’s really, really beautiful. You have a very captivating way of articulating things, which I love so much. And I’d love to ask you one more question, and this is very much a question put to you just to inquire into your own personal perhaps experience or perspective, but going back to the Devi Mahatmyam text, the goddess yoganidra, how does understanding or having a relationship with the goddess relate to this or how can we make that relatable to the practitioner that wants to sort of assimilate these teachings in a way that is, yeah, just a way that is digestible. How can we understand what is taught in that text in the context of this conversation? How is there relevance here with the goddess to moving into the state, let’s say, transitioning along the path into that deeper, deeper state and deeper inquiry, what is your understanding and how would you teach or share the teachings of this goddess and of this text within the context of yoga nidra?

Indu:

That’s a great question, Amy. When I share whatever limited I know, my intention is not to convince anyone that this is the path for you or this will work for you or this is the way to look at it. I try to give a picture from different dimensions. For example, in the yoga nidra trainings that I offer, I don’t dive into a specific technique or a particular text. I share about yoga nidra that some, for some people, maybe the connection with the divine feminine may become a path. They may feel that connection that, oh, the nature of night is nurturing, the nature of night is protective. So I can see that how yoga nidra as a goddess is a feminine nurturing, nourishing protective energy, and this goddess appears every single night when I’m in deep dreamless sleep, but I’m asleep. How can I meet this goddess?

How do I, this goddess is present, she gives the darshan, she’s present in me, in my sleep every single night. So if I wish to meet this goddess when I am asleep, how do I wake up to it? So some people may feel drawing while for others this may not be the path. For someone, the path may be, oh, I know, yes, that sounds so accessible, so familiar that there is something that is awake. So one is that pathway of sleeping. One is the pathway of yeah, you are right, I don’t fall off from the bed, there is something that is awake, so there is something already awake. How do I witness that witness? For some people, that pathway works better. So in my limited knowledge, in my limited understanding, it’s not about that this is the only way to understand yoga nidra, there are so many ways to understand yoga nidra, for example, through the lens of Adi Shankaracharya, there is Atma-tattva-avalokanam, a practice which is witnessing how you go to sleep and how you wake up. The process of waking up and the process of falling asleep, that when you wake up, how do you wake up, what wakes up?

What is already awake and what is waking up? How do I bridge that gap so that there is continuity? So I don’t just check out, I maintain a check in. So for different people, we all have different aptitudes. Another teacher used to say everyone has a different physical, mental, emotional karmic capacity. One thing does not speaks to everyone. She used to say and still says that if you make a point on a piece of paper, draw a point, there are 360 degrees around it. There are 360 ways to reach the point. You have explored one? Great, move on, there are 359 paths waiting. Keep your mind open. If this doesn’t speak to you, it’s okay. There are many other ways to understand it.

Amy:

This really wonderful what you’ve had to share there. And I say that wonderful in the truest sense of the word. Really, really emphasizing, I think, particularly going back to the Devi Mahatmyam, the immense value in studying a text under a teacher rather than picking up a text and just reading it. Which particularly for those of us not who have not grown up with the cultural context and have not grown up with a lot of these texts around us, it can be very challenging to reveal or unveil the hidden mystical, let’s say, teachings that are in there. And I really appreciate the way that you’ve articulated that because as I said, it’s truly wonderful. It’s just so incredible to listen to you and your insight here is so helpful and so enriching. You truly are a guiding light in our community. Is there anything else that you would like to sprinkle into this conversation about yoga nidra before we close?

Indu:

As much as it is important to keep learning, and there are various ways to keep learning, sometimes we feel the gap that I must learn Sanskrit. Sometimes we feel the gap that, oh, I have learned yoga sutras, I need to know Hathayoga Pradipika. I need to know Yoga Taravali, or this Upanishad, but now I know this, but now I need to know Isho Upanishad. It’s endless.

Pay attention to when you are distracting yourself from the path. It’s wonderful to attain knowledge, but knowledge is not equal to wisdom. That is a difference. Wonderful. Keep gaining knowledge, keep learning. But along with learning, what is equally important is unlearning. Are we doing that too? And yes, yoganidra at present, one of the ways it is shared about or emphasized is a method and we learn one method and then we get biased about that method and then we get stuck with that method and then we start to justify that method. Then we start fighting with another method. Is that the goal? Pay attention. What is the purpose of this wisdom? What is the purpose of yoga? And learn from a place of contentment, not from a place of unrest. That is so important because there are people who have realized, actualized, stayed in the state of yoga without reading a single book because they have explored their own minds and their own states of realization. That is also a path to attain the state of yoga.

Amy:

Thank you, indu. You offer multiple courses that explore many facets of the diamond that is yoga, including a course as you mentioned on Yoga nidra. For anyone who would love to study with you, I believe you have a 50 hour Laya yoga of Chakras coming up in June, which looks incredible in my opinion. And a 50 hour essential Ayurveda for yoga practitioners training in August, which is also incredibly important and invaluable for all out there, yoga teachers and practitioners alike. And there is a link to all courses and trainings with Indu on the summit webpage. Or you can find them over on yogsadhna.com, which is Y-O-G-S-A-D-H-N-A.com. Thank you for tuning into the conversation. Don’t forget you can upgrade to gain lifetime access to all these wisdom fueled conversations. And thank you, Indu, for your generous insight and tireless dedication to supporting and illuminating our global yoga community through your work. Thank you so much.

Indu:

Thank you. My pleasure.

IF YOU ARE:

Searching beyond the sea of superficial yoga flooding your feed,

Yearning for insightful conversations and community,

A sincere seeker devoted to the depths of studentship,

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yoga ayurveda mastermind amy landry about

So who is your summit host?

A beacon for those craving a connection to tradition and timeless wisdom, Amy Landry has cemented herself as a global yoga teacher, teacher trainer, mentor, mama, ayurvedic practitioner, podcast host, speaker, and eternal student.

Renowned for her sold-out retreats, Amy has contributed extensively to Australian Yoga Journal, Om Yoga & Lifestyle magazine, YOGA Magazine (UK), and Nature & Health magazine (AU).

She has presented at Wanderlust, Evolve, Byron Spirit Fest, and Ekam Yoga Festival. You can listen to her Living In Alignment podcast on all major platforms.

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